China

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Re: China

Postby benthonic » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:22 pm

U can say that again (smiley face)

but the post IS worth repeating - it has got wide currency

(I might add: what are our 'boys' doing in Afghanistan, dying for those pricks in US senate?)
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Re: China

Postby jonasson » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:41 pm

From Bloomberg:

Can China Withstand a US-Europe Slowdown or
Recession?
We believe China can offset weakness in the US and Europe,
in much the same way as it successfully did in the GFC (see
again Figure 2). Like then, it has significant monetary and
fiscal firepower to deploy if necessary. Unlike then, however,
when the stimulus was directed at infrastructure projects, we
would expect another round of stimulus to be directed at the
consumer. Already the Government has embarked on
significant income tax reform (taking effect in September),
raising the tax-free threshold from RMB 2000 per month to
RMB 3500 per month ($540/month), reducing the number of
tax paying wage earners from 28% to 8%! Additional
stimulus is likely to be directed toward subsidies for the
purchase of household durables (vehicles, appliances, etc),
social housing, improvements in health insurance and
services, and improving the social security safety net.
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Re: China

Postby benthonic » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:39 pm

....Demographic changes will impact household wealth creation. In their report, The Coming Demographic Deficit: How Aging Populations will Reduce Global Savings, [McKinsey analysts]* wrote: "Aging will cause growth in household financial wealth to slow by more than two-thirds across countries we studied (USA, Japan, and W Europe), from 4.5% historically to 1.2% going forward.A surprising development is that the demographic profile of the USA is so much better than that of China. Once the USA puts its financial house in better order, which it will if not willingly, its growth expectations will be better than China's......

For China, based on simple fundamentals, growth has peaked. The years of circa 10% growth are over because such growth is unsustainable and brings in its wake a package of problems. "One approach to forecasting total real GDP of a country is to combine the projected trend in the number of persons employed with the projected trend in the gross productivity per worker" writes Dr Laurent. He calculates that the trends in the education index of the country should give an expected productivity growth of 7.8% a year to 2016 and 5.8% a year to 2021. This equation gives a trend growth rate for real GDP growth of
• 7.5% a year to 2016
• 5.1% a year to 2021, and
• 3% a year to 2031

This slowdown will have a huge impact on China's future requirements of imported metals like copper. This trend is likely to be magnified also by US and other foreign companies vacating China and returning to their home bases – in the USA once the political system rolls back much of the red tape, health care costs and tax issues etc. There is a fundamental reason for companies to return home: it is that multinationals want their supplier chains adjacent to the market, not on the other side of the world.

Simon Hunt November/December Economic Report - found at http://www.johnmauldin.com/outsidethebo ... Simon-Hunt

&* http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/demographics/
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Re: China

Postby benthonic » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:57 am

one side of the property situation in China

CBA has trimmed its 2012 GDP growth forecast for China to 8.7% from 9.0%. The change reflects not only lower expected exports but also an “orderly” decline in Chinese property prices of 10-20%. Despite nervousness to date, China's net house prices has yet to peak, notes CBA, albeit price falls in the largest cities are an indicator of things to come. Yet even with 10-20% price falls, CBA suggests the greater influence of China's construction and manufacturing sectors on wealth generation means the negative contribution from falling property prices will only be small.

It would be a different story were China's prices to see much bigger falls, CBA concedes, but that's not what the economists are forecasting. They also offer nine reasons why an orderly decline of 10-20% in China is really nothing much for the rest of the world to fret over.
(1) The Chinese economy is undergoing a structural change which sees a shift from universal public housing towards ownership of private dwellings. Observers should not underestimate the impact of this structural upheaval on prices as opposed to what the West knows as property price cycles.
(2) China's residential mortgage loans are just 15% of GDP, compared to 70% for the US and 90% for Australia; and (3) the vast majority of China's housing boom has been financed out of savings rather than debt.
(4) Household consumption represents only 37% of China's GDP compared to 62% in Australia and 70% in the US. A fall in house prices thus implies a lower negative wealth effect on the economy in China; and (5) while it seems like China is undergoing a world-beating residential construction boom, residential construction only accounts for 6.0% in GDP which is the same in Australia.
(6) If the Chinese property market were to collapse, the response from Beijing would be swift. China's current cash rate is 6.56% so there's plenty of room to move.
(7) Does it seem like the Chinese property market is in a bubble? Since 2005 the net price increase for new homes has been 6.3%pa and for existing homes only 3.9%pa. The growth rate in the US, and in other Asian regions, had been much higher.
(8) Price-to-rent ratio growth suggests slight overvaluation, but not as much as is currently the case in Singapore, Hong Kong, France and Canada.
(9) While China's residential vacancy rate of 10% appears high (Australia 2.1%), this comes back to point (1) about the structural shift. As the Chinese move out of their old public housing complexes and into their own dwellings the government will be demolishing those old complexes in their wake.

To conclude, CBA notes that while falling housing affordability in large Chinese cities threatens significant social problems, a 10-20% nationwide decline in net house prices is not expected to deliver a large net impact on the Chinese economy.

and the other one, which is based on reality .. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-2 ... nment.html

... the dilemma facing China’s government as it tries to cool the property market. If policies such as increased down payment requirements don’t go far enough, it risks a housing bubble; if it pushes too hard, it may provoke the ire of a new generation of middle class “fang nu,” or housing slaves, in a reference to the lifetime’s work needed to pay off debts. ...

Residential property prices fell from the previous month in 33 cities of the 70 measured in October, the worst performance this year, after the government imposed restrictions on mortgages and loans to developers. Analysts at Credit Suisse Group AG say prices may fall 10 percent this year and another 10 percent in 2012. Huang Yiping, a Hong Kong-based economist at Barclays Plc, said the drop would be between 10 to 30 percent in the next 12 months.

In an indication of how seriously the government is taking the matter, a Nov. 21 commentary by the official Xinhua News Agency said that such protests are “a social phenomenon that cannot be ignored,” before adding that their appeals aren’t supported by law....
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Re: China

Postby Disco Stu » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:47 am

Interesting little blog on China realestate...

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2011/12 ... ites-back/
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Re: China

Postby benthonic » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:30 pm

,....... a looming demographic shift for China, Bloomberg Businessweek reports in its Jan. 9 issue. The latest government census shows 178 million Chinese were over 60 in 2009. That figure could reach 437 million -- one third of the population -- by 2050, the United Nations forecasts. While the elderly were looked after in the past by their children, urbanization and the nation’s one-child policy have eroded the tradition of family care.

“It’s a demographic tsunami,” says Joseph J. Christian, a fellow at the Asia Center at the Harvard Kennedy School, and former DLA Piper partner in Hong Kong, who specializes in senior housing issues in China. “The whole multi­generational housing model has disappeared.”

China’s challenge is similar to that faced by Japan in the 1990s, with one essential difference: China will grow old before it gets rich. With tens of millions of parents left to fend for themselves, the government set up a National Committee on Aging to try to devise a comprehensive strategy (CHGE7) to ensure their health and comfort.

The latest five-year plan still gives families primary responsibility for elderly care. Even so, the government is looking to the private sector, nongovernmental organizations, and local communities for a more sustainable solution. So far only a handful of companies provide service comparable to the West, and even care like the kind offered by the clinic where Wang Fuchuan lives is relatively rare.

“Elderly health care is in its infancy” in China, says Ninie Wang, founder of Beijing-based Pinetree Senior Care Services, which employs 500 nurses providing in-home support to 20,000 seniors in Beijing.....

....In a 20 square meter (215 square feet) apartment without heating or an indoor toilet in one of Shanghai’s few remaining old neighborhoods, 81-year-old Luo Jinxiang says his pension barely covers food and medication for his diabetes and the occasional visit to a local clinic. “Do you really believe that the government cares for us?” he asks with a wry smile. “Don’t think about it too much. That is the way the country runs.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-04/china-no-country-for-old-men-as-demographic-tsunami-begins.html

I have always thought, and even read somewhere, that the 'hurry to industrialise, to urbanise", was precisely to put something in place for these realities. A more equitable spread, with development of middle class, of aspirants, may make the issue, if not solvable,at least with some structures and supports. Definitely the Commies in power aren't going to do it.
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Re: China

Postby Judd » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:17 pm

Not too sure that the Government in this country is prepared to do it either unless you have zero or few assets; in which case a bare minimum (if that) standard will apply. For those with assets, kiss 'em goodbye - see the thread on Aged Care Bonds aged-care-bonds-4971.html
Regards
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Re: China

Postby scott_reeve » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:50 pm

A compelling chart by Alan Kohler on the ABC News tonight – Chinese real estate index down 34% since June 2011.

“If anything, the slide is accelerating. I seem to remember something like that happening in the United States in 2007?"

Image

Time lag impact on Australia?

Cheers
Scott
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Re: China

Postby benthonic » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:28 pm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-1 ... rural.html

China’s urban population surpassed the number of people living in the countryside last year for the first time in the nation’s more than 5,000 years of history.

The number of people living in towns and cities increased by 21 million to 690.79 million at the end of 2011, according to the National Bureau of Statistics. The rural population fell by 14.56 million to 656.56 million, the bureau said,.............
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Re: China

Postby Disco Stu » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:20 pm

A couple interesting articles on China and its demographic time bomb:

The economist:
http://www.economist.com/node/21553056

and more of the same but with some nice accompany graphs from Macro Business:

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012/04 ... illes-heal

Dunno if you need to log onto either Macrobusiness or the Economist to read those articles, but if your having trouble with the first link, Macrobusiness has an embedded link within its article that will take you there.
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