Property Slump?

REITs,LPTs, Residential, Commercial

Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:30 am

An update of Tales from the Burbs.

Judd wrote:Next door neighbor (4 bedroom in need of lots of TLC) went to Auction in September dreaming (literally) of high 5's based on the property which sold in March. Got one offer of $350k. Still on market. Soon to go bankrupt I feel as the bank is apparently pushing.


Still on the market but with a different agent. Somehow, I don't think that the message has got through to them that the offer of $350k was probably the best they were going to get. Yet despite their debts went off on a week's holiday: "We haven't had a holiday for over five years." I suppose that once you're so far in the do doo's and used to it, more debt doesn't matter. I admit I am surprised that they are still in the house and the bank hasn't repossessed it by now

Judd wrote:The couple a few doors down was to go the Auction in August. Sign was quietly taken down before the Auction date. They seem to be keeping a very low profile.


Moved out last Friday week. Quietly. No For Sale sign. No farewell to neighbors. No nothing. Just moved out.

What is disturbing is seeing young couples of television beaming over the house they have bought with the assistance of the first home buyers grant of $14k to $21k. Declaring to all the world that they could not have afforded to buy their 'dream home' without that assistance. Now, here is the rub. Home foreclosures have been on the increase for around two years or so. One wonders if any study has been done to determine within those foreclosures how many relate to the previous lot of first home buyers who declared to the world at the time that they could not have afforded to buy their 'dream home' without that FHB assistance? I fear that a number of the happy faces now will be the foreclosures of the future and all this Government has done has set up a number of the younger, financially illiterate, generation for a big fall with the FHB.

Makes me feel rather sad.
Regards
Judd
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:07 pm

Notice something about a number of these photographs? You should. It is what most of the world bet against - and lost.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/0 ... ssion.html
Regards
Judd
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:07 pm

Judd wrote:Still on the market but with a different agent. Somehow, I don't think that the message has got through to them that the offer of $350k was probably the best they were going to get. Yet despite their debts went off on a week's holiday: "We haven't had a holiday for over five years." I suppose that once you're so far in the do doo's and used to it, more debt doesn't matter. I admit I am surprised that they are still in the house and the bank hasn't repossessed it by now.


Right now I am a little bit tippsy. Spent a couple of hours with the above neighbor over the road. He needed to unload and, as we have been neighbors for 20 years, he picked me. He is about 58 years of age. A bit older than I.

Over a few beers, quite a while since I have touched that stuff, he related his tale. If Thomas Hardy were still alive, it would form the basis of another novel of trying to move above your station and class in life.

An synopsis of the, rather one-sided, conversation as all I could really do was say "Uh Ha," "Yep, go on."

A public servant in a secure job with good pay. The first mistake was moving from the CSS to the PSS. Reason was that he and his wife could reduce the required contribution from 5% of salary to 2%. The difference would be put into the mortgage, pay off the house and then increase contributions to 10%. Never happened. We spent it. Didn't realise we were but things just came up and we used the money.

Second problem. With only $35k owing on the house plus a car loan and credit card problem, we took out the line of credit. Looked good on the graphs. Salary going to the mortgage, use credit card for day-to-day debts. But we blew it. Used the credit line to buy things.

Third mistake. At the age of 53, within two years of probably taking early retirement and a guaranteed indexed pension for life, courtesy of the taxpayer, I resigned, cashed in my super and set up a small business. The kids needed a job and I thought this would be something for them. Also had our eyes on a leased BMW to show that we had made it. Kids didn't like the work, move to other jobs, went overseas, drifted. BMW never eventuated: accountant set us straight on that. Wife became unwell.

Four years later, business went bust. Poor management. Sold at a loss. Still owing heaps. Signed the contracts yesterday to sell the home and all we have left is the clothes on our back, some crappy furniture and a car that, even at best, is only worth $250 as scrap. I've contemplated suicide, mate, but that was not the way out. Could not go into bankruptcy, although I've thought about it, as other people are rightly owed money and I feel that I should pay them as much as I can.

I totally screwed things up starting 19 years ago. What a F&*king waste of our lives.

It was rather a painful few hours, folks. I admire the person for what he has NOT done. And yet this is only one small family in one unimportant street in one nondescript suburb. There are more such tales out there and certainly more to come.

By the way the sale price was some $150k less than what they originally had as the reserve at the failed auction.

Count your blessings folks.
Regards
Judd
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby jonasson » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

Unfortunately Judd, we are taught many things by our educational institutions, and the rest we learn by life experience, or not at all.

My early life working for NMLA ( now AXA ) taught me that most people are like your neighbour, in that they fail to plan.

30 years after leaving that organisation, I still find myself explaining basic financial principle's to people ( the basics don't change-spend less than you earn, pay off debt, don't borrow for depreciating assets )

If the fridge or car goes bust, so are they, there is no money in reserve for any of life's emergencies as they arise.

I recall one bloke who was convinced a lottery win was just around the corner, ( and this was pre pokies in SA ) so he had no reason to budget or save.

Today, Housing SA considers that living in a car disqualifies you for emergency housing, as you already have a place to live!

Wonder where all those $900's will be spent? On essentials, saved, credit card, a new fridge?

The local pub would be my guess.

Back to where they started, economy stimulated?
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby LainieJean » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:17 am

We are currently helping an elderly relative sell her current home and buy an easier to manage home unit. In one unit for sale that we looked over we spoke to the tenant (a very polite and helpful young man) who told us he and his wife would be moving back to living with his inlaws rather than finding a new place to rent. They had the largest television set that I had ever seen.


Cheers

LJ
Image
Detail from The Crystal Ball painted by J W Waterhouse
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby benthonic » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:17 pm

wasn't it the NZ politician who said

"some of our citizens are so impoverished their children have sleep in the box the TV came in" or something along those lines

This couple could live in their box !!
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby benthonic » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:02 pm

anecdotal stuff

the fever of YHBs to get the bonus before it runs out is creating distortions in the lower end of Aust property market and setting up a few for massive disappointment, I would think. Was at a beer'n'pizza apres work get-together and that was all the conversation turned to. Get in, buying is cheaper than renting. Snap 'em up.

The tone of comments: yes they acknowledge they should be faithful to 'dear Prudence' and the head can give all the arguments but there seems to be a collective rush of blood, a mania, to get in.

Yes, there are housing pressures, but commitment to 30yr mortgages at the trough of the interest rate cycle with unemployment a distinct possibility for many. Scary stuff. Can't you wait 6 months?
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby sorgman » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:34 am

Yep, this FHBG is a disaster waiting to happen. Such a dumb thing to introduce. Even if the grant is kept on, it's bought forward a heap of purchases. We are stuck with it surely, as if it were dropped in July 1, there would be a massive bust. It's probably done the exact opposite to what it was designed to do. It's bought forward all this buying, but when things get really bad, there will be no buyers left.
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:01 pm

How about this Government, instead of giving $6.4 billion to the car industry, also introduce a First Car Buyers Grant (Say 30% of the purchase price) to assist with the transport needs of the FHB's who have bought in either rural or far flung suburban areas?

The bottom line is, if you need a grant to buy something, then you probably cannot afford it.

The really odd thing about residential property is that no individual house is the same and yet it is treated as if the entire sector is homogeneous. I know that a lot of property bulls are saying now is the time to buy. It could be but only if you base your repayments on interest rates at least 4% higher then is presently the case. I fear for FHB's who do not do that. The most dangerous phrase in regard to a drop in house prices or an increase in interest rates is "It's not going to happen."

As for investing, well, I have read somewhere (buggered if I can remember where I read it) that a house selling for more than seven times gross annual rental is probably not going to be a good investment. If that is true, then look out below as prices fall through the floor. Ah yes, I forgot, the adage It's different this time applies to investment property or indeed owner occupied houses. That phrase was also used in respect of share prices, the overall market and the global economy.
Regards
Judd
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:25 am

Could not have put it better myself. The articles encapsulates my thoughts on this matter. Why do we always elect politicians instead of leaders?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/its-brick ... ml?page=-1

The Rudd Government's boost to the first-home owners grant stirred up many old wives' tales that have sustained the great Australian dream of home ownership. It's time to dismiss a few of them.

Across the country, baby boomer parents whisper in the ears of their progeny that now is the time to buy. They warn: "You'll never get in if you don't." They say: "You're better off paying off your own mortgage than your landlord's." For those not yet convinced, they resort to the old catchcry: "Rent money is dead money."

What they forget is that average house prices are now seven times the average annual salary, up from about three times when the boomers first bought in. They forget, too, that in the months since the temporary boost to the first-home owners grant - $7000 for established homes and $14,000 for new ones - house prices in the sub-$500,000 category have ballooned.

Seemingly unaware of the false economy, first-home buyers have engaged in a game of mutually assured destruction, and in fact, have been bidding house prices up.

Australians are frustratingly single-minded when it comes to owning property. It's like an affair in which a lover is so besotted by their partner, they forgive all their minor foibles, and even some outright abusive behaviour.

For the record, rent money is not dead money. Renters are paying for a service - shelter and protection from the cold. Hardly wasted money. Worse still, the deriding of rent as "dead money" incorrectly implies that money spent on mortgage interest payments is somehow "alive money", or a useful investment.

Last time I checked, a mortgage holder with a $300,000 mortgage pays $1400 a month in interest payments straight to the pockets of those same banking chiefs we all say we despise. Hate them, but you're paying their salary.

But it's not just parents egging young buyers on, it's politicians. As preparations for this year's budget enter their final stages, the Rudd Government must decide whether it will extend the deadline for the increased first-home owners grant past June 30. I don't think they should, but suspect they will.

Labor has undergone an about-face on housing policy. The contrast between pre-election posturing and the reality in government is stark.

On July 27, 2007, the Labor opposition hosted a "housing affordability summit" in the main committee room in Parliament House. About 150 housing experts from all over the country braved Canberra's winter chill to discuss solutions to the housing affordability crisis.

I was there. There was little agreement on what needed to be done, but summiteers were unanimous in what shouldn't be done. Everyone agreed that increasing the first-home owners grant would simply result in higher house prices.

Labor seemed convinced and produced a discussion paper quoting the chief economist at ANZ, Saul Eslake, saying: "Anything which puts additional cash in the hands of buyers … results merely in more expensive houses."

As the paper concluded: "This analysis suggests that simply increasing the first-home owners grant in isolation may not make housing more affordable in the long run if it leads to inflationary pressures on the cost of homes. It is important that policy proposals designed to assist first-home buyers, are economically responsible so that the benefits are not eroded through additional pressure on house prices."

Labor went on to design a suite of housing proposals to take to the 2007 election including first-home saver accounts, a $600 million National Rental Affordability Scheme, a $500 million Housing Affordability Fund, and a dedicated housing minister.

The key attraction of the first-home saver accounts was that savings would accumulate incrementally over time and not put immediate upward pressure on house prices. Money - plus Labor's co-contribution - could only be retrieved after four years.

What a difference being in government makes.

John Howard once said that political parties always favour improving housing affordability while in opposition, but when in government, always try to stop house prices falling. "A true housing crisis in this country is when there is a sustained fall in the value of our homes and in house prices," he said.

Thanks to the global recession, that is now a real threat. House prices have plunged in many advanced economies, including Britain.

Australia is somewhat different, as we have not built enough new homes to keep pace with demand. But rising joblessness will make it harder for families to keep up with mortgage repayments, meaning forced sales and lower house prices, in some areas at least. It has already happened in the richer suburbs of Sydney, where thousands of finance sector employees have been sacked.

So the Rudd Government, which was elected promising to improve housing affordability, now wants to seek re-election next year as the party which stopped house prices from falling.

They're being egged on by Treasury boffins who think reduced housing affordability for first-time buyers is a small price to pay for the confidence boost that existing home owners get from homes that maintain their value.

It's an argument that politicians are only too keen to hear, because the political sums on housing are simple. Australian households can be divided into three, roughly equal-sized, groups: renters, mortgage holders and those that own their homes outright. While the first group like flat or falling house prices, the second two prefer it if house prices rise.

It's not hard to see which way the cards are likely to fall on budget night.
Regards
Judd
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby benthonic » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:50 pm

.
"Last time I checked, a mortgage holder with a $300,000 mortgage pays $1400 a month in interest payments straight to the pockets of those same banking chiefs we all say we despise."

What an absurd sentence. Diminishes the argument in what correctly is termed "Opinion"
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Re: Property Slump?

Postby Judd » Mon May 25, 2009 10:05 am

Well, I never would have guessed. Really thankful that the media has enlightened us about this - well after the fact as is usually the case.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 01,00.html


First-home buyers borrow big

Nick Tabakoff and Joe Kelly | May 25, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE average loan size for first-home buyers has risen by $52,000 - or 23 per cent - in the past two years, raising fears that government incentives for young buyers are artificially inflating the market. [Rather than fear it is most likely reality - Judd]

A report commissioned by Brandmanagement, a market research firm specialising in the finance sector, says the average size of loans being taken up by young home buyers is jumping by an "unsustainable" amount.

Drawing on Australian Bureau of Statistics figures, the report has found the average size of the loans rose by $11,400 in the three months to February, after rising by $18,100 in the three months to November.

In total, the first-home buyer average loan size jumped by $52,000 to $280,600 in the two years to February.

The huge rise in the value of their individual loans in recent months has made first-home buyers become an increasingly important part of the residential market. The figures show that by February they comprised 26.9 per cent of that market: up from 17.3 per cent in February 2008.

The actual number of first-home buyers also rose sharply in the year to February: rising from just over 9000 to more than 14,400 in the year to February.

The federal Government's First Home Owner's Boost scheme - which provides up to $21,000 for new homes and $14,000 for established homes - is being progressively phased out, and will cut out altogether after the end of this year.

Sydney couple David Halter and Kate Tulip, both 25, are among the thousands of first-home buyers who have entered the market - and taken on a sizeable mortgage - since the beginning of the year.

Last month they bought a two-bedroom apartment in Lindfield, on Sydney's north shore, and Mr Halter said the grant was a major factor in their decision to buy.

"We're putting in a new kitchen and bathroom. And we've knocked down a few walls because it was a 70s style unit," Mr Halter said.

While Mr Halter, who works in advertising, and Ms Tulip, a primary school teacher, agree that the first-home buyers grant had inflated the market - particularly for properties valued at below $500,000 - they are confident that they didn't pay too much. "We looked at about 20 places before we bought ... we thought that some of them were inflated," Mr Halter said.

"It just got silly. In some of the areas there were these bidding wars going on. It was hard to get in to see a place before it got sold."

Brandmanagement's principal, Andrew Inwood, said the statistics - which indicate that property prices are rising in line with loan sizes - have raised questions about whether the grant was simply being used by consumers to buy into a bubble.

"What the government incentives appear to have done is transfer the money from the people who are borrowing money to buy their first homes into the pockets of those who are selling at a more attractive price," he said.

Mr Inwood hinted that this mini-boom in the price of properties would not go on forever.

"There'll be a collapse in those prices again," he said.

Australian Consumers Association spokesman Christopher Zinn said the rapid growth in loans to first-home buyers against the backdrop of the government incentives carried certain moral obligations for banks.

"We would trust that the banks were practising what they preached, in terms of lending responsibly in this area," he said.

Even real estate agents admit that the government incentives are creating an unsustainable bubble at the more affordable end of the property market.

Legendary Sydney luxury property agent Bill Bridges said yesterday some agents on entry-level real estate were "loading the prices up" to capitalise on the first-home buyers scheme. [Never. Cannot be true. According to the REIV, real estate agents are honest brokers matching buyer and seller for competitively and realistically priced property - Judd.]

"The market's got to take off and go back to 2005, 2006 and 2007 prices for these poor people to get their money back," 80-year old Mr Bridges said.

Mr Bridges is also pessimistic about the ability of many people taking up first-home buyer grants to service loans into the future.

"The Government is giving them money not knowing whether they can service the loan," he said.

"But what about for those that are going to lose their job? It's lovely for people to be first-home buyers and get a house. But the debt has to be paid, and that's a big worry."

He expressed concerns that if people are stretched beyond their means through incentives, "it will all end up like (the sub-prime mortgage situation in) America".

The review reveals that lower-income earners have a propensity to use more low-documentation lending products, with the proportion at at 22.2 per cent. This compares with the figures for the high-income bracket of 16.7 per cent.

Mr Halter and Ms Tulip put a 10 per cent deposit down for their unit, which cost "between $380,000 and $420,000".

But the couple, who will marry next year, say they "got a bargain". They believe the value of the property will rise by "50 to 60k" after renovations. [Be very surprising if they had said, we overpaid and got a dog of a property that no amount of work will salvage - Judd]

Mr Halter said they were keen to purchase the unit before June 30, when the government grants were originally due to expire.

"We wanted the $14,000. It gave us an opportunity to buy in a better location than we were normally able to afford, and we used the $14,000 to renovate."
Regards
Judd
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